griefsense with Mimi Gonzalez

Kat Primeau on: growing up in hospice & finding your gifts in grief

• Mimi Gonzalez • Season 2 • Episode 22

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Step into a space where grief meets creativity in this enlightening conversation with Kat Primeau, aka the Good Grief Doula. Host Mimi Gonzalez and Kat dive into what it means to be death positive and how embracing grief can unlock creative expression and personal growth.

Kat opens up about growing up in hospice and how her own experiences with loss not only shaped her as an artist but also inspired her work in helping others navigate their grief. This episode explores the vital role of creativity—whether it's through music, art, or writing—in processing and honoring our deepest emotions.

Learn about Swedish death cleaning and how mindful practices like this can help us cope with and prepare for loss. Discover the importance of community and curiosity in finding support and new perspectives as you move through grief.

Whether you're a young artist struggling with loss or someone looking to understand grief’s impact on life and creativity, this episode offers insights and encouragement. Tune in to find out how embracing your grief can lead to unexpected gifts of inspiration and resilience.

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You're listening to season two of the grief sense podcast. I'm your host Mimi Gonzalez, AKA the Zillennial Griever. I am a creative entrepreneur, social impact strategist and community organizer based in Hartford, Connecticut. But most importantly, I am a Griever. griefsense is really a safe space for creatives who are grievers, and I really created this space because it's something I wish I had. And sometimes you have to create the things that you wish existed. I am a serial griever, where I've experienced significant loss, losing about 20 people before I turned 25 years old, and it was really hard to find community, people who look like me. In the death positive movement space. On the show, you'll mainly hear from Gen Z and millennial minoritized grievers, but you'll also have some advocates on the show who share our experience, but also want to amplify our voices and our stories. So what is grief sense? What, what does that even mean? Right? It's not just some fancy name of a brand or the podcast. Okay. It's actually a term that I've coined to name my experience. Sometimes the words So griefsense to me really is an inner sixth sense and intuition that's unlocked after experiencing physical loss and it inspires purpose through it. Creative expression. Hence, grievers who are creatives. So we do this in three ways. One, we embrace our mantra, which is we live life as a privilege. Two, We honor our ancestors and the legacies of our loved ones who have died. And three, we not only normalize talking about grief and death and everything in between, but we really talk about the importance of planning for our death and talking about this in community with our families. What are our death care wishes, you know, and really normalizing that because that is not something that. We typically do in our very death phobic world. I hope that when you tune into these episodes that you feel super comfortable. I want you to think that you are in a living room or in Spanish, we say the sala, but the grief sala, and I hope that you're able to have. Tea in your hand or a cafecito so that way you're comfortable. I want you to feel like you're talking to your best friends or your primos or your cousins, people who really understand you and get it. And if you are not a griever, and if you are here to learn and listen to the stories that are shared on the show, thank you so much for being here. Your voice is important too, because guess what? If you're not a griever now, unfortunately you will be one day. And I'm hoping that the insights that you hear on the show will help you navigate that experience. one thing I wanted to also share y'all griefsense is always going to be lowercase because death, grief, all of that, it can be really scary. So these conversations is to really de stigmatize death and grief and really making sure it's like relatable, digestible, accessible, and yeah, it can be scary for sure, but let's do it together. Let's be in community together. So with that. Welcome to the movement. Welcome to La Familia and welcome to griefsense. Let's dive in.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Welcome back, listeners of griefsense I am so excited to have you join us for yet another episode. Today we have Kat Primeau with us and I cannot wait for you all to hear her story. She, similar to me, is a serial griever and this is someone I describe as someone who's experienced a lot of loss and just has kind of dealt with a lot of trauma throughout their life. And me and Kat were talking before we hopped on, uh, to record that how much we have in common in regards to being creative and really trying to educate people on the death positive aspect of what we do. And really, you know, and when we talk about this, there's a word that we all hear. Body positive, right? It's the same thing, death positive. But instead of obviously your body, you're just really embracing that grief, death. dying. It's literally all a part of our human lived experience and we're just shedding light about it in a really creative and lighthearted way. So, me and Kat definitely bond over that and I think you'll learn that pretty soon and I can't wait for you all to meet her. So, without further ado, Kat, welcome and please feel free to introduce yourself to the people.

Kat Primeau:

Okay, awesome. Thank you, Mimi. Um, I wanted to say that Uh, what made me know that we were going to connect was listening to your podcast and hearing you just like spontaneously singing. Um, like there's just like always a song kind of in the ether that's like, I need to sing this right now. And I have that affliction as well. So, um, yes, that death positivity, right. Talking about it doesn't make it happen. It just makes it happen with less stigma and more community support. Um, so yeah, I'm Kat Primeau and I am an artist and a grief doula. I live in LA and I provide services IRL and also online, um, around grief support, ritual guidance and downsizing, death cleaning, you know, kind of support with, uh, The transitions of life and helping people integrate pain and love and find meaning. Using creative modalities is kind of my favorite way to access those, uh, avenues of discovery and resilience and growth and all the things.

Mimi Gonzalez:

All the things. Wow. Well, y'all, y'all know why I had to have Kat on the show. So clearly, clearly fits right into the griefsense familia. So yeah, so Kat, every episode, as you know, from listening to the podcast, we really like to call our people into the space to just set the, set the tone, set the vibe. And it also helps, you know, people listening in and is a, is a reminder, like, let's say the names. of the people that have died in our lives. Let's say their names. Let's honor their memory and just make this a daily practice. And so with that, is there anyone that you would like to call into the space? And I'd love to help celebrate them with you.

Kat Primeau:

Yes. Thank you so much for this opportunity to celebrate. Um, I actually logged onto Facebook earlier and saw, you know, that, that familiar feeling of logging onto Facebook and your dead friends having a birthday. Um, or loved one. Yeah. Right. So today, um, is my friend Kelly Armbruster's birthday and we were college friends and roommates. And she was so fun loving and would always say, loves it! And you know, just go on little adventures in college when you're still just a kid. Doing so much exploring and, and finding yourself. So, um, I'd like to honor Kelly, and her life. We don't have to go into the, the loss necessarily, but, um, I, I'm learning a lot since that was like 16 years ago and feeling very happy to be able to look back on that loss and see it now from a more And to recognize the disenfranchised grief and the, um, the lack of support structures around that loss in college and, uh, on that, on that level. So, yeah, all of Kelly's loved ones and friends and, um, you know, people, I, I honor you and I honor Kelly today. Happy. Birthday. Loves it. Loves it! And then I always have to give a little nod to my dad, um, John Primeau. And he would hang out with friends and make them feel really loved and, um, supported and be a good community member and soccer coach and all the things. So I know he. Played a role in a lot of people's lives. And, um, my little you are great and wonderful mug because that was kind of his, uh, little catchphrase there towards the end of life when he, um, was sick with frontotemporal degeneration. and ALS and had limited, uh, verbal ability. He still always wanted to remind people how great and wonderful they were. He was like a cheerleader till the end. So, um,

Mimi Gonzalez:

Beautiful.

Kat Primeau:

Toast to you.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Toast to Don okay, now I have to take a sip. Wow. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. I'm honored to help honor Don & Kelly. Um, and, you know, I really look forward to learning more about them and their impact on your life. And one thing I wanted to pull out from what you said, it really resonated with me, is the fact that, like, now, Looking back from when those losses happened, I mean, specifically, you know, with Kelly's loss, like, you said that you're at a more, you know, mature state of your life right now, where you're able to like, I guess, process and understand the grief a little differently. And that really hit home for me because I almost feel like the older I get, The more I grieve, if that makes sense, or like, it's different, right? The grief, the grief is different, but like, I have more language and tools to understand what I was going through. And at that time, I didn't. So it almost feels like I regrieve the loss at different stages of my life, or there'll be certain triggers that happen, and I'm just like, oh boy, here we go. You know, but that really resonated with me, and I'm sure it's going to resonate with you. Folks tuning in because there might be a certain smell or a certain milestone in your life or a certain It could be something small as a song or whatever. It just really hits you Like sometimes it feels like I'm walking right into a brick wall. It was like, well, I'm having a really great day So I really appreciated that. So I don't know if you want to elaborate that on a little bit more.

Kat Primeau:

Yeah. I mean, there's no timeline here, right? And there's no right or wrong way of doing things. So it's really freeing then to say, Hey, that happened so long ago. I was in such a different place. I was angry. It was a shock. It wasn't, you know, something that I, Uh, really wanted to linger on, um, at the time and that can be so common, right? There's the shock, there's the, we need to get on and do all the tasks and things. So now to come back, uh, from a more like mindful, spacious place and be like, I have so much empathy for you and what. Led you to make those choices that ultimately, uh, led to the end of your life. And I see so many things, right? So in this specific loss, it was, um, substance abuse opioids, right? And there is a show and I'm forgetting the name right now, but watching the show and seeing how, uh, those drugs, OxyContin and things were marketed and distributed, especially in Appalachian, Ohio, I was, um, you know, just really allowed me to have so much more empathy for what was going on in the brain and so much more awareness around. You know, we, we don't have control over so much and people are in such pain and people are, you know, doing their best however they can. And, um, that is great that a TV show could like, like you said, trigger, activate those feelings and then allow for some sort of processing so long after the initial event for me.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Well, I'm just processing. Wow. Yeah, and I, I forgot the name of the show too, I think it's on Netflix, um, but my boyfriend and I were watching it, and we were like, wow, like this was really pushed, and it was like a party all the time, and like, I feel like they really preyed on young women too, to be marketers or sellers of the product, and it's like, Yeah, that's, that's really tough. Well, holding space for Kelly. Breathe in through it. Let's take a deep breath with that one. Yeah. Um, well, so with that, I mean, as much or as little as you want to share, I'd love to hear more about your grief story and just the impact of You know, of Don, of Kelly on your life.

Kat Primeau:

Yeah. Thank you. Um, it's funny cause it's kind of like in hindsight, I realized that it was always kind of there, right. But yeah, I grew up volunteering in hospice with my grandparents. Like I would feel very comfortable going and sitting and holding hands with people. My grandma would always go pray the rosary with folks. Um, and so from a young age, I was. It's around people, uh, elders, uh, who were infirm or with dementia. And when I actually moved to LA, I got a job at an assisted living home and I was teaching seated exercise and, and doing all things, hosting my birthday tea parties, uh, with these folks. And it was all so great until it came a little too close to home and, uh, you know, with my dad, it really was. Okay, here's this awesome, incredible human being and then his personality was changing. And, um, you know, for folks who aren't familiar with frontotemporal degeneration, um, that is a type of early onset dementia that, uh, Bruce Willis is currently, um, having. So you kind of can see we're out in the world, some examples of this, but a lot of people struggle to get the initial diagnosis because it's misdiagnosed as like a midlife crisis or something. Um, and. I know we were just like, what the heck is going on? Why is dad behaving this way? This is not like him. And then once we had the diagnosis, it was, , pretty harrowing, right? There's not a lot of people that I know. Who have this, uh, or have this experience and it's different than other dementia. It wasn't like he was losing memories. It was, he was, uh, being a little more risky, right? He was breaking some rules and, uh, being inappropriate socially and all these things that were, you know, awkward to adjust to. Uh, and, um, also my grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's in a very similar time. So, uh, just having two people on both kind of my maternal grandmother on both sides of my family, um, struggling with dementia got me really into Studying consciousness and mindfulness and the nature of being and, um, and then being present at my dad's deathbed and seeing what a beautiful, , experience of gathering community and allowing for a pizza party and playing all the music and anyone, you know, wanted to come in and say goodbye, could like, I was like, this is. Powerful stuff. And it doesn't always happen that way, right? And we can't predict and we can't, um, coordinate, uh, for ourselves, but it definitely felt like he had his advanced directive in place. So my mom could make the appropriate decisions at the time needed. And then he said, you know, he, he knew where he wanted us to, uh, spread his ashes, all the things, right? So it just was like, um, a beautifully orchestrated. Um, very, very, very sad ending to a great person's life, right? So all the contradictory things at once, right? Holding this joy, and this community, and this love, and this isolation, and this fear. And, you know, he also, FTD, can also sometimes, be combined with ALS. So he had ALS as well. So he was just shrinking away physically, you know, while still being such a lover and such a cheerleader. And yeah, it shook me.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Okay. Yeah. We got, we have to take another deep breath for that. Inhale for hold for exhale for. Okay. Let's breathe in. Exhale. Thank you so much for sharing. Can't imagine. I mean, that's so much to be dealing with, right? Because there's like the The anticipatory grief, right, before the physical loss happens, but then you also are dealing with other loss or other, it's like multiple layers of anticipatory grief with your grandmother's dad. And then after it happens, you're like, I can only imagine it's like, well, what the hell do I do now? You know? Like, and it goes to show, like. No matter how much intention you put into end of life planning, which is so important and so powerful. And I definitely encourage everyone tuning in to you have not started that process. Please do that. Like yesterday, research, look into it. Everyone's process is going to look different. But, um, really that made me kind of think about no matter how much of a plan you have in store, right? Like it's still going to affect you deeply. You know, and like totally alter your reality. And it's funny, I was actually recording another episode yesterday and on our conversation I had with my guests, we were talking about how after experiencing grief, you have to kind of like reinvent yourself. You, it's like a entirely new reality that you have to figure out how to live in. You know? It's, yeah. So I, wow. Just thank you so much for

Kat Primeau:

sharing. Yeah, and thank you for being present with it. I know you lost your dad so young, right? And, and that's its own, uh, experience of all the, all the milestones, all the moments of, of that, right? So, Dead Dad's Club.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Dead Dad's Club, what's up? No one wants to do it, but we can't help it. The gang we've never wanted to be initiated in, but here we are. Yeah. Thank you so much for calling my father into the space as well. You know, every time I record an episode, I look at him and I'm like, Daddy, you know, I get to meet a new grief friend today. You know, if you get to, wherever you are in the other realm, if you get a chance to like meet their family members, like, please tell them hi, you know, like, I just, yeah.

Kat Primeau:

I'm guessing that they're probably, my dad loved brewing beer and was a bit of a pusher. So if they have found each other, I think they're probably toasting a beer right now.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Oh, yeah. So apparently, I mean, cause I didn't, you know, I, I only have stories mostly of my dad, but, uh, I guess his 40 ounce Heineken that, that was always. You

Kat Primeau:

know, it's

Mimi Gonzalez:

so funny too. I mean, like, I was really reflecting on this because like, like I have, I have a dead father, like I definitely do and like, but when I was, I think about six or seven, my mom met. My stepfather, who I also call dad now, and I feel like being in grief, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this as well. I feel like being in grief has taught me how to navigate like the in betweens of life. Like I'm neither here nor there, but I'm everywhere and nowhere at once. You know what I'm saying? And like, there were so many of those moments throughout my life where like, okay, I have a dead father, but then I gained a new father in life. Like, not that obviously he can never replace my biological father, but what a gift and blessing it is to have two fathers and two dads, you know, and like, I could have grown up fatherless at all, like with no father figure whatsoever. And the fact that I had, I inherited a new dad and his entire family, like, it just felt so good to, to, to have that. It's a gift and a blessing that I recognize. Cause I know that other family or other, yeah, other people don't. always have that experience or have like a good relationship with a stepfather or their family and like I just really wanted to like honor that but I don't know have there been any similar like in between experiences that you've had in life ever since you experienced your losses. I'd love to know.

Kat Primeau:

I mean, so my early twenties, I started working on a show that is still just like in the back of my mind, right? That is probably a musical and, um, I called it Stuck in the Between Place. Um, and I was writing it while I was still working at the assisted living home, right? And I just was with all these people who were also kind of in transition, right? They, they were, um, And they were, you know, preparing for death, you know, and it was something that, I mean, that's still kind of like my, my opus that I'm like, trying to figure out what it looks like and what it will be because yeah, it's absolutely, So much of that in between and, you know, we talked about holding to kind of opposing things, um, and, and combo emos is what I like to call it when it's like, I'm so angry and I feel so happy that this is over and you know, uh, right that there's, there's a lot of gray area. And grief, right? We've learned to not lean on these binaries so much and to be open to, um, right? The fact that we can still chat with dad, you know, uh, and that there is possibility and there is, uh, yeah, a spectrum that we are on and we are in the dash right now between the dash our birth date and our death date, right? So everyone is technically In this in between, but yes, I think, uh, you know, from what you've shared and what I've experienced, definitely just like super present to the fact of, uh, it's all transition and it all needs that yes and improvisational spirit in order to move through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

Mimi Gonzalez:

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's perfect because I feel like literally if you are a griever, it's never either or. It's always yes and, or and also. Always. Because I'm like, Right now I'm recording a podcast and this is something I love to do and I'm meeting really dope people like Kat But like I'm still grieving, you know, like I just I cried this morning, but like I'm happy at the same time You know, it's like this Yeah, there's just so many it's just like a spectrum, you know, like it's never either or so I just I really I think this is really good because we're normalizing that, um, so if, and if anyone tuning in, like, if you resonate with this, like, please let us know. Comment on YouTube, let us know, um, because I'd love to hear, you know, what kind of comes up for you. Um, but Kat, you mentioned You use different creative modalities to help you process grief and also help others process grief. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Because, you know, I definitely feel in the way that the direction that griefsense is going and definitely where I want, want it to go is really to be this safe space for creatives who are grievers. Um, just because I feel like I really do feel that our grief really helps us to us live presently, but it also helps our art and the magic we create just that much more powerful and like transformative. Um, I, I mean, I feel like that. I don't know if you do, but I just, I just really want to know, yeah, like what are some of the creative modalities that you use? And yeah, just talk to us a little bit about that.

Kat Primeau:

Okay. Great. Yeah. I mean, creativity is such a fun vehicle to explore these, these feelings when you're ready and when you're open to it. So I personally have, you know, my own creative practice and I enjoy songwriting and storytelling and letter writing. Um, I have several pen pals and I'm a snail mail lover, right? Um, So, yeah, um, and. I definitely have recognized that sometimes the grief is not yet ready to be expressed in a form and definitely not in something to share with others, right? But, you know, I've got my singing bowl right here behind me and just like at one point during the pandemic. Like it stuff was so dark and I just had to be like, uh, singing along with my singing bowl because I just need to get this out of my lungs and I need to feel it and like up and out of my body, please. You know, um, that's, that was great. Beautiful. Um, no, so, so, um, yeah, music as a vehicle, creating playlists, um, writing, I engage in various different mediums. Um, I personally feel very comfortable performing. So I enjoy doing sort of, uh, laughter workshops and improv workshops with folks. Um, I, I had one, uh, In April, 2022 that I called Re-ha-habilitation, right? We've been masked up. We've been behind closed doors. We've been not hanging out for so long. Right. And we all are carrying this huge grief of, you know, the 7 million COVID dead and all of this. loss and all, you know, all the other non life losses around that. So implementing a workshop, utilizing all the, all my favorite games and some laughter yoga, you know, just to, uh, see what sticks for people to be in community around it and kind of outside in. Right. So sometimes we just have to like, Fake the laughter in order to get that going again in ourselves and, uh, just engage our lungs in whatever capacity, whether that's, you know, just humming together as a group. Um, uh, yeah, I guess I'm not really describing the actual tasks themselves, but really it's like listening to what people enjoy doing. Like, Hey, when you're not thinking about this. It's the sadness that you're, um, in the midst of, you know, what is something you enjoy doing for fun or relaxation? And then kind of yes, anding around that to find the avenue, you know, so some people want to do some grief yoga. Some people want to, uh, go for a hike. Some people want to sing. Some people want to bang on drums. Um, you know. Some people want to create some sort of very precious moment for their wedding, um, in order to call in those who aren't present, right? It's all these different, uh, avenues for, um, finding textures that resonate with you and your authentic expression of your grief.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Well, I'm just like, Kat is so cool. That's so awesome. And I just everything you were saying I was just like if only Young people are just, if only everyone knew that you don't need to have a million dollars or a lot of money or all the resources in the world to help you process your grief. The things that naturally bring you joy is a really wonderful place to start, you know. And I felt like when you were talking, I felt like, man, I feel like she's like really reading like my life as if she had a script of my life right in front of her because Literally, my first introduction to all the creative stuff was drumming, like, that was my first. Music is really, I think, what saved me. Um, and like, and this is kind of another blessing of inheriting a family, um, after grief because my stepfathers, stepfather, uh, was a drummer and he was, he's half Dutch, half Surinamese, and like, he was just the coolest guy. Like, well, he is the coolest guy. Shout out to Frake, that's his name. Um, he had this, like, really thick accent. He was 6'8 You know, he's this big guy who loves music and he really taught me my love for like Prince and Sheila E and like, yeah, he was just funky, you know, and like really got me into my love of drums and Around that time is when I had, like, a really big grief moment in my life. My best friend, it was me and my sister, our best friend, unfortunately, took her life. And, um, yeah, I think my family kind of, like, was, like, definitely an intervention. Like, what can we do to support Mimi at this time? And, lo and behold, the drums, you know? So it was great. Um, and just, yeah, music in general. And then when you said playlists, all my friends know me, like, whenever People need a playlist. I'm like, I got you. I have 107 playlists made at this point. Like, I literally just do it for fun. I'm like, well, if I'm not doing anything, or even if I'm watching a show, I'm like, let me make a playlist. I already have my funeral playlist ready and locked and loaded to go because I told my family, I was like, y'all are not going to disrespect the music played at my funeral. Like y'all are going to have what I want played.

Kat Primeau:

I love it.

Mimi Gonzalez:

I

Kat Primeau:

want to hear it. I want to hear what you want there.

Mimi Gonzalez:

It's probably chaotic. Like it has definitely has a lot of like R& B and like reggaeton and like hip hop but like some alternative stuff in there. You know, it's just like a whole mix but that's what grief is, right? It's like everything. Yeah. Yeah. So what would be your favorite form of expression if there is one or do you kind of feel like there isn't? Like just kind of like whatever you're feeling in the moment you kind of just go with the flow?

Kat Primeau:

Oh, no, I have a total favorite. I love singing. I love singing. It's my favorite color. Um, yeah, right. I, so when, after I worked in assisted living, uh, I started working in the music industry in LA and I was working at a recording studio, right? So I was like helping all these like legit rock stars, um, uh, and all the incredible staff there. And, you know, it was so hard to be there and like, then get a phone call and be like, Oh, dad has ALS now. And it's like, okay, cool. I'll keep smiling. And, uh, what? Uh, Paul McCartney needs something, you know, like it just was like such a weird, like, incongruent space. It's an in

Mimi Gonzalez:

between, right? That's like another, another in between space. Yes.

Kat Primeau:

Yeah. Um, right. And there, working at that studio, I met my spouse, my wonderful husband, Chris Sousa, and, uh, we started a band together. Um, and so I just really felt like finding my voice. Through that relationship, through that band, through these opportunities to sing on other people's things, um, really, uh, that's my, that's my warm and special place. Right. And, um, you had mentioned earlier, like, uh, once you, you have a loss, right. You, things change and, and you kind of can't go back. Right. So like, I, I felt that sensation and I wrote a little ditty, you know, for myself. It's like, um, Be gentle with me, be soft with me. I'm not wearing black, but I'll never go back before morning. Right? The idea that like, you just can't take it. Thank you. Thank you. Right? Um, I wrote a song while my dad was still sick and it helped me to, um, Put words around this like extremely nebulous, uh, feeling of loss and confusion, um, and fear, right? There's fear around being a, a daughter of someone who has dementia, right? There is the, is this genetic? It's like, what's gonna, what's gonna happen to you? What's all that, you know? So, um, for me, Music is like the most immediate to go to and utilizing my voice is definitely my strongest capacity within that. And, and the week my dad died, the following week we had his funeral and I sang at his funeral, um, with Chris and my, my friend Lindy joined me out there and it was just so special to be able to do that and also really hard. Um, and then. I had a show the following weekend, like a musical that I was in back in LA. So I like had to get back across the country and you know, they were like, we can cancel it if you want to. And I'm like, no, this is my joy. Like this, I want to be here for this. I need, my soul needs this. Right. So, um, yeah, there's kind of that outside in, in the sense that you can, Be around creativity and music and stuff, and it can really soothe you and comfort you and bring you the joy that you're needing to elevate yourself out of the darkness, uh, as well as the inside out where it's, Hey, my lungs need to expel this right now. And my gut needs to voice this. And I just open up the channel and let it happen.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Wow. Wow. Wow. My mind was like, I've never felt so seen

Kat Primeau:

yes. And that's your experience too. You feel that way? I do.

Mimi Gonzalez:

I do. Um, So after I discovered my love for drumming and music and stuff like that, um, I mean, my, my, even my dad, my dad that raised me, he's very musical, like, and he listened to all genres of music and he was just not your traditional, I don't know. And it was pretty cool. I have young parents. So like my mom is only, she's about to turn 45, I think, 45 or 46. And my dad's about to turn 49. But like growing up with young parents was like really cool because like, yeah. You know, me and my mom are only 17 years apart. So like, it's just wild to me, but, you know, we were always listening to music really loud on blast. Like the car, there was no such thing as quiet music, like either heavy rap or like loud Nirvana, Green Day, like loud merengue or salsa music. Like it was, it was just the best growing up with all that music. And it really, really shaped me. And when I turned I think it was 16 or 17. I'm going to a drum lesson. I'm in my regular drum lesson and my drum, my drumming instructor's like, Mimi, do you sing? And I was like, why on earth would you ask me that question? Like, what are you, like, literally I got so awkward, you know? And he's like, something tells me that you sing. And I was like, I don't know. I got, I don't know. He's like, well, call your mom right now and tell her you're not leaving this drum lesson until I hear you sing a song. I was like. Okay, so he did not let me leave until I sang a song and he just gave me some lyrics that he had written down in the tune and he's like, I want you to sing this. I was like, okay. So I sang it and he was like, yeah, I want you to sing on my album that I'm working on. And I'm like, yes. How did I do that at like, what do you mean, sir? I'm just here for my drum. lesson, , , you know? And so. Long story short, yeah. So he really nurtured my love for singing and I don't know if I'm the best singer, but I like to sing. I mean, I put on really great shows for the shampoo and conditioner. But Yeah, so I recorded music with him and he was, he's really close friends with Sheila E, by the way. So I got to like hear her on the phone. So that was really cool. Yeah, so music definitely saved my life and the song that I sing all of the time that it just brings me so much joy is Sunday Morning by Maroon 5. Like, there's just something about that song. It's so healing to me, you know, and I sing it all the time, all the time, all the time. So, but yeah, I would say singing and music, definitely my, my fallback. I love producing music. I'm not the best at it, but it's just fun. It's just, it's just

Kat Primeau:

great. Like anything, it's a practice. You just show up and you do it. Yep. Wow. This is so good. Being able to play drums is really badass. Like, can you do it at the same time?

Mimi Gonzalez:

Oh.

Kat Primeau:

Nope.

Mimi Gonzalez:

I tried, like, many times and I was like, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just gonna step my lane and I can do it. That's the only time where it's either or, not yet.

Kat Primeau:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you. That's, that would be extremely impressive, but it's impressive. Part as well. Yes.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Well, you are cool, my friend. You've had quite the journey. I will say. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Well, I am curious. So can you tell us about like the work that you do day in and day out? Like, you know, you had. So many great experiences in your life. What kind of led you to do the work that you're doing now? Like, of course, I know you growing up, you've had a lot of exposure to loss and being present in this experience of like, honoring death as just a beautiful experience. But what kind of, what was that moment in your life that made you be like, okay, I really want to take this work to the next level and lead to, you know, what I'm doing today? And of course, tell the people what you do today. Like,

Kat Primeau:

I'm just blown away. Thank you. Thanks. Yeah. Um, okay. So yeah, it was, Pandemic times, right? Remember that time? The world stopped. Yeah. Yeah, that was wild. And of course that meant no putting on musicals or shows and, you know, my work in the music industry was non essential, uh, at least for the early months of it. Um, And, uh, early on in the pandemic, my grandfather, uh, Grandpa Bill, died, um, and he, um, he had a lot of comorbidities, but he also had COVID and just kind of, uh, Getting into the moment of, okay, I guess I'm putting together his Zoom memorial. Okay. I guess I'm, uh, driving to Ohio to help close his estate right now. Right. And kind of on this journey to honor him while also still not being able to have his, uh, funeral, like the big Catholic. Event that he would have wanted it to be right away, you know, um, you know, having all these restrictions was kind of like, okay, I will go towards this, right? I have the time and space to be supportive in this. And he always was like, you are so great with elders and you work well with people with dementia and it's like beautiful to see. And I really think you should be doing this, right? So thank you. Around the time of his passing, I'm like, okay, maybe this is the time that I pivot and stop being in this world of, of rockstars and like help the real life rockstars out there who are caregiving, who are grieving, who are going through these transitions or anticipating these transitions for themselves. So I thought long and hard and I. Uh, ended up starting death doula training, um, with going with grace, uh, in August 2020, and then continued to become a grief educator, uh, studying under David Kessler in 2021, and just like went to every workshop, every, uh, thing that I could learn became, um, a peer support specialist with a part time job that I have. Um, you know, not being an expert, not trying to fix things, but knowing how to ask people questions and help guide them and resource them along the way. So that was kind of the, the germinating seed. And now I'm like fully into running my practice as the good grief doula. And, you know, as a grief doula, I see my role as, you know, providing the non medical support care around end of life and grief that folks need. And, you know, doing it from a secular place where we can call in creativity and all these other tools that humans have developed throughout the ages. And mindfulness is a really big tool that I love. And, you know, I like to attend to the needs of the grieving in the work so people can do kind of one on one grief support work going through that process with me or just a one off session of like, hey, I don't know what that is. It's called the what the WTF kit. I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. Can you please hear me right? And, and, and so often, uh, yeah, the work is normalizing, educating and witnessing people and their grief, right? Because we don't necessarily have spaces. Um, and we don't have people who are as curious as you and I, right? Like, that it's like, tell me everything. I want to know all about your person. I want to know how you're feeling. Like, how are your poops? Like, I need anything you want to share, right? Game. Because, um, really when I sought grief support for myself, it felt so clinical. It felt so removed from my actual life and not very integrated. Um, so I just kind of wanted to, to fill in the gaps that I saw.

Mimi Gonzalez:

I really love that. Thank you for sharing that. And like, I didn't even know what a grief or death doula was until, yeah, 2020. Um, after my, it's so wild how many parallels we have. Like, I'm, I'm kind of getting spooked out at this moment. Like, what's happening? I'm like, my grandpa Lenny, you know, same, around that same time. Like, that's really kind of what, you know, Essentially, I didn't know that I was like a doula for him, but that's exactly what it was, you know, and I, and I loved every, every freaking moment of it. I wish I could like bottle up all of those moments and just, you know, look back at them and you know, I'm kind of grateful I did because when my grandfather was in hospice, um, I recorded so many of our conversations. And I still haven't been able to get to that space to like, play them back yet. It's really hard for me to hear his voice and I still have him as my favorites. Um, you know, so, you know, grief, um, but like around that time, I think is what made me realize the importance of dignified services, whether that's a funeral or even doula work or even like the clinical work, like similar to you. Yeah, like it, it feels so transactional. Like, dude, you're dealing with a person that is dying and their family has to like. They're grieving, like, you know, and things can just be so robotic and just like lack all this empathy and human compassion. And like, that was such a huge, like, frustrating point for me. And I'm just like, what can I do to use all the talents that I have? Like, You know, my creative side, you know, I have an HR background and I've worked in corporate for a while like what can I do to create something really great that can help inspire people to get involved in this work because it's like you don't need to like obviously yes it's great you should definitely have certifications if you're going to be an official death doula, grief doula, but Everyone can have experience being a doula, like you want to make sure your person is comfortable and has everything they need and they're peaceful before they make that transition. Like that's one of the most difficult moments that anyone's ever going to experience is death. So what can you do to make it more not about you, about the person and really dignify them in that way. And I think that's what I've learned about, you know, the work that you're doing. Um, and just like, Yeah, like how can we dignify the people that have lived full lives and like even look at the funeral industry and like There's I've been to so many services that just were not dignified at all Like it was kind of like this rushed put together Process and like I do think in part that's because our since our world is so death phobic and we're taught not to deal with our grief or have these taboo conversations, which are not obviously I feel like since we didn't put in the work to get to know our person on such a deep, deep level like that, there's so many services that are just not dignified, you know? And I feel like there's, there's, it's our responsibility to change that narrative and to really, like, give them a dignified ceremony. So I love everything that you're saying too, and the work, and I feel like, With the services you offer, you help people not only dignify them in one of the most important moments of their lives, but also in kind of helping support them, Hey, how do we create something that's like really representative of this person and like, yeah, like dignify them.

Kat Primeau:

Absolutely. I mean, it's an ancient practice, right? There were always people who filled these roles in communities that could be present with people, uh, for these transitions and support them. And so it's really a continuation of, of that practice. And sure. Yeah. Certification and education around it. Wow. bolster you. Um, but I really love to say, you know, when, when sharing tools and gathering new resources, that it's like, you are a good grief doula. Like you already have everything you need to provide good loving care for your loved one. Like, don't feel like there's some sort of gate or barrier that you have to get through in order to do this. Like it is within you. And it is, you know, definitely takes so much strength to be a caregiver, to be present with someone, to witness these, um, end of life experiences and sometimes see things that you wouldn't want to see, right? It is the bravest, most beautiful, um, Greatest gift that you can give to someone. So I honor that you did that for your grandpa Lenny. And you know, I encourage anyone who is doing it now, like you don't have to have a piece of paper in order to feel like you really did it. And you really made an impact and made the world a better place by, um, gifting your time and your love to the world in that way.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Beautiful. Love that. Um, Switching gears a bit. I mean, not completely switching. Um, but I saw a video on your Instagram. And I recently learned about this, probably, like on my podcast, someone had brought it up, I think. Um, do you know Adriana Michelle, the Death Alchemist? Are you familiar with her?

Kat Primeau:

I follow the Death Alchemist, but I don't know, yeah, them.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Yeah, so I had her on the show, and so she had first mentioned, uh, the Swedish housecleaning. Oh yeah. Like what the hell is that? So I would love for you to talk about it because I know there's a whole show on it, but in your video you said here's a one part y'all don't miss out. So I want you to spill the tea if you're open to that and just kind of first tell the people what does that even mean. And what was the show basically?

Kat Primeau:

Yeah. Um, okay. So the Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning is, uh, a book written by Margarita Magnusson, uh, and it has been developed into a TV show that I think you can watch on Peacock. And, um, essentially this, uh, is a practice. In Sweden, uh, I think they call it dåndersting. Pronunciation is probably incorrect. Right, but it is, uh, attending to your belongings and, uh, making a plan for them and kind of downsizing just naturally over time as you are aging, right? And, um, That can be, uh, really mindfully gifting things, uh, and donating things, as well as, you know, leaving little notes on the bottom underneath tables or things that you want to gift so that everyone knows exactly where they go to, right? Um, We don't want to, uh, add any drama or drama to the people who we are leaving behind by not making clear what our wishes for our things are, or, you know, having a hoarding situation that is just, you know, a whole other, um. It's very common too. Yeah, and it makes sense, right? It's so difficult to look at these things. It's so difficult to deal with them, right? Or the idea of dealing with it is difficult in actual practice, just like a little bit every day and tackling a different, uh, room or a different item, you know, really It's can be done systematically and be really fun. So I've done it with folks and I've downsized and I've prepared homes for sale and, um, we're laughing the whole time. Right. And we get to share the memories of, Oh, and when this happened, look at this photo, and I got this on this trip and it was, it was amazing and all of this, right, there's all this richness to the experience that you don't. have, uh, when you just leave it with no story and no nothing, right? And it seems like, wow, that's a lot of work, but it really can be a process that you do over time, very casually. Um, right. I forget exactly what my beef was with the show, but I know it's kind of like the show makes it seem like you gotta get it all done and you gotta get rid of stuff and there's only three categories of things, right? And. The truth is that there's so much more, right? Your electronics and your batteries and your VHSs, these things, if we're trying to be aware of our footprint on our planet, really should be considered well in advance so that it's not tossed in the dumpster and then leaking into our water and all the things, right? So there is, um, You know, a little more nuanced than you can get on a TV show, but I understand how TV shows are made. So the nitty gritty isn't always on display, right? Uh, but yes, I do have a, a blog post about that on good grief doula. com slash stories. If you want to check it out.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Yep. And I, I just, I never knew that. It was this process of like doing it over time and that's genius because it's like it can be so unbearable like after someone Dies, and I'm like dang. What am I supposed to do with all this shit now? This is a lot of stuff, and then you don't even want to look at it You wish you can just like close the door and tuck it away and not even look at it again But like If it's in a house, you have to like get the house ready for sales. Like all of that estate planning, like it's, it's, it's like a headache. So I really love the idea of like doing it over time. Like we know, and also normalizing that something I'm pulling out from that as well as like, Not everyone dies at an old age. So even doing that now when we're alive, young, and healthy, because we never know when our time is going to come. And I think, yeah, wow.

Kat Primeau:

Yeah, I try to do it a little bit every year, right? To just, like, comb through and put some things aside for my niece, you know, and, and Just have an awareness of that, right? I want to help lighten people's loads and brighten their way and encourage folks to leave a lighter footprint in whatever way they can. Um, and their family will be so grateful for it or their, their loved ones, whomever they're They're leaving their items too. Yeah. And so many people have like their feng shui and their home is just all stuck because there's that pile of so and so's belongings that they can't get to. Right. And so if you need a buddy, invite a buddy over, like get someone there. There, chances are there's a doula in your community or, you know, a cousin or a younger folk and your family that will come and then you don't have to look through it alone, right? And just power through, uh, because what you're so often what we're afraid of when we actually turn to it is not as, as scary and as difficult as we build it up to be in our minds.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Yes, absolutely. Wow, and like, as we were talking about that, I was like, hmm, I wonder if there's a service that I might have to, like, create if it doesn't exist here where I am in Connecticut, in Hartford, Connecticut, where, like, hey, like, if there was an older person that recently passed but doesn't have a lot of family near them, like, I wonder there could be, like, a volunteer service or a volunteer day where we get some young people together and, like, help them out, you know? So I'm gonna do some digging. That's a really good idea. Yeah. Cool. So, you know, at the end of every episode, and I feel like, and you're someone I feel like I can talk to for hours and hours and hours, and I'm so grateful that you are in my life now, and like, I really hope, you know, I'm not a one and done person whatsoever, and like I really, you know, and I'm not transactional, and I think grief definitely made me that way, but like I. I truly see you as one of my good friends now and hope that we can continue, like, collaborating and creating magic together and I'd love to see you one day in LA and, you know, just keep it going. But, so this is definitely not the end, but for the end of this episode, um, we always transition to a creative prompt segment and, you know, journaling is a huge, uh, way or really great grief home. I call it grief home, but creative outlet to people who are processing, you know, pain, trauma, right? Grief. Um, but I, I always like to add a creative twist to it, you know, cause it kind of helps you process it. So the prompt that you chose is to describe a particular book, movie, song, or piece of artwork that has helped you process your grief. And so, yeah, we'd love to know. Put us on.

Kat Primeau:

Thank you. Thanks for saying all of that. And I, I really feel it too. And it's incredible how many parallels there are. When you said, as we're reaching the end, I like felt a little grief, like, oh my gosh, it's over. Right? I'm just like, I wear, I wear my heart like right here. So I just was like, oh, it's getting, oh, it hurts. It's already over. Oh, um, you know, these endings, they, they, they don't get easier. Um, so thank you for this awesome opportunity to talk and, I'm going to end, uh, And be like super vulnerable. This is not something that I've talked about much, uh, before, but I think it could, uh, resonate and be helpful for people. So I will go ahead and scare myself and do something scary today. Um, and yeah, you know, since I am a creative and I enjoy creating, um, I, I just want to share a songwriting experience that I had, uh, which was in 2021, uh, you know, we're still social distancing and whatnot. So, uh, a couple of my bandmates and my spouse and I would go and play outdoors and we were writing some new songs together. Um, And we started writing a song and it was like so happy and like great vibe and kind of around that time I had discovered that we were pregnant and so I kind of was like, okay, this, this happy joyous song is like, I, you know, I don't know if it's going to be about that, but like early iterations of writing and jamming on it was like, this is so clearly about this. Right. The songs kind of tell you what they need to be about. And then fast forward a couple of weeks and we had experienced pregnancy loss, early pregnancy loss in the first trimester there and right. Just such pain and heartache and. During the pandemic too, right? So I got to go to all those awful appointments completely by myself, isolated, just like, so, um, sad that the, the joy was. now tainted by this loss, right? This experience. And so the song kind of took new shape and I was able to, um, kind of turn the song into the living, uh, existing concrete thing that is here in the absence of that child, right? So, um, It's called back to one and, you know, that's like a notion of, uh, when you're on set, you, you know, you shoot something and then everybody goes back to one and you get another take of the same thing, right? So you, the whole scene unfurls and then you have to go back to the very beginning and pretend none of it happened. And that kind of imagery speaks to the secrecy of having a pregnancy loss where you don't. Uh, you haven't shared it with anyone, so no one knows that you're also then, uh, hurting and experiencing this, right? So um, the lyrics speak to that, and I won't share all of them, but um, kind of this notion You know, baby, I'd do anything for you. I wrote a song so I could sing just for you. Um, they say I should let it go. I say let it grow. I'm growing. I'm growing. I'll always grow love for you.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Definitely snapping and holding space because I got all the goosies. As you were reading that, I was saying that, um, and thank you so much for sharing. Um, that is so tough. I can't even imagine, like you mentioned, I mean, you, such a short timeframe, so much loss in such a short amount of time and then being in the pandemic and, yeah, it wasn't even the end of it. The point you said, too, about going to appointments. Alone and isolated. I didn't, that's nowhere near my frame of mind at all. And that's an experience I didn't even think about for all the moms. For potential moms out there going to those appointments at such a scary time. Wow.

Kat Primeau:

Thank you. Yeah, it was such a weird, weird time of, of that and anyone receiving treatment at that time for, you know, chemo or anything, you know, like you were kind of going a bit more alone. And yeah, I think we're so keen as a culture to move past the pandemic and be like, Oh, thank God that's over. And absolutely, I feel that, too, but I do feel the importance of, you know, Naming those that were lost to COVID and all the kind of complications that people experienced around their rituals, around their funerals, around their appointments, their births, everything around that, right? Like, if we name it, it can lose a little bit of its, uh, scariness in our hearts and its hold on us and our anger.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Wow. Thank you for saying that. And I also just want to acknowledge the fact that you're going through such a difficult time and You were propelled to create something so beautiful. And that to me is so special because that is the power of creativity. That's the power of having a creative outlet to make you realize like, Hey, yeah, like this is a really tough time that we're always going to think about. And it's always going to be with us, but how can we give it a new reality or look at it in a certain way that will bring us more peace than harm. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I, that was so beautiful. I got so emotional when you were, I'm gonna be thinking about this later and probably cry about it later., I'm just so grateful that you shared that. Um, thank you. I, I know it's gonna impact a lot of people and like, also I wanna acknowledge you did something scary today. That's something new. And being vulnerable, I mean. Talking about death, grief, and dying, and confronting mortality, like, you can't have those conversations without being vulnerable, right? Like, that's just, you know, point blank period. But, then you add in the layer of, like, getting deep into the grief, and like, how these experiences really shape our world view, and our experiences, like, I'm just wowed by you. I'm, Thank you.

Kat Primeau:

Thank you so much for all your great questions and your curiosity around it, right? It's such a gift when we come across someone who is curious and wants to know as opposed to says some little trite thing and is like, Oh, so sorry. Next. Okay. Can we talk about something else? You know? Um, so it's a real gift that you are giving to the community to allow people to be heard and to hear. You know, connect with others through this. And, you know, I appreciate you and all the boldness that you are doing and still so young and so much life ahead of you and like, there's going to be so much. goodness, uh, because you were brave enough to take this leap and to share this with everyone. Right? And like, bring it on, let it out. I love it. I just cried as well. So you're in very good company, right? You're in good company.

Mimi Gonzalez:

It just feels good to do something that makes you feel alive. And I never knew that. Talking about grief and my experiences with loss would make me feel alive, but it does. And that's kind of how I've been able to make sense of the world around me. And the reason why I named this podcast griefsense, like for me, it's more than a podcast. This is my inner lived experience is this griefsense. It's like this intuition that was unlocked in me after people died in my life. And it almost felt like. After every single person died, there was this level of, to your point about talking about consciousness earlier, like, it felt like that it unlocked this unconscious, this consciousness in me. that connect me to another world, another reality, another realm that I know exists. I don't know what it looks like or what, but it's like, I feel like even though my family members have died in the physical form, like I'm still connecting with them. And for a long time I didn't. I didn't know how. I mean, I was still young and I'm still young. I'm still figuring it all out. Like, I don't know all the answers, but to your point about being curious, like, I just want to explore all the different ways that I can honor my people that have died because it makes, it brings me peace. It makes me feel connected with them, you know, and yeah, I just, I want to keep doing that. I want to help encourage other people to do that because it can make the grief feel not so overpowering. I also want to make a note griefsense is always lowercase because I feel like grief and death and all of these really big topics, right, are, it can overpower us if we let it, you know, and like while my grief is always going to be a part of me. I'll never change that part of me, but it's not the only aspect of my identity, of my identity. So I can move with my grief instead of moving against the current. Like, what can life look like if I move with my grief? And I feel like ever since I made that conscious decision, I feel like beautiful things have happened in my life. And I'm like, you know what? I don't know where this is gonna go, but I'm just gonna Lean into it and see what happens because guess what I could die tomorrow Yeah, and I'm just I'm just gonna go with it and I'm gonna be unapologetically me. And yeah, that's all I got

Kat Primeau:

Yes, well you are great and wonderful You're killer you're So prolific, you are so powerful, you are so honest, and you, um, are a gift, so thank you for sharing your gift, and choosing, and wanting to talk to me, and sharing in that Reimagine event, hey, if anyone wants to check, check out the show, I was like, okay, great, if you're on this Reimagine event with me, I, we're going to get along.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Um, Shout out to Reimagined and the whole team, too. I love what they're doing. I love every, every bit of what they're doing and that vigil, I think about it all the time, actually, and that because I was at such a pivotal moment in life with everything across the world and Palestine and all the different genocides and, you know. So much pain that everyone, it kind of felt like the pandemic again, where people just wanted to look away and pretend like this isn't happening, but it's happening and it's affecting all of us. And, you know, I took up actually a big hiatus from podcasting because I, my grief, it was too much. The collective grief in the world was triggering my internal grief and it was a lot. And so what I decided to do was like, I was holding community vigils for my community, just to hold space to talk about what was going on and. That's what I did and that gave me peace just to be in community versus if that was me before the pandemic, I would have never even thought to do that, but grieving in community is the most liberating thing I've ever experienced in my life because it's like you have people that understand you and they don't even have to say a word because you just, you just understand. You know, so, yeah, that vigil really impacted me and just really put a fire under my butt. That was like, nah girl, you know what you're doing, just keep leaning in. Keep doing what you're doing. And the more spaces like this that exist, the better it will be, you know? Yes.

Kat Primeau:

Yeah. We heal in relation to others and yeah. And so often I hear, I don't want to, Burden anyone, you know, I don't want to, and you are, you and your grief are not a burden that you are a gift and when we are brave and vulnerable and open up and show up to these spaces, we see our shared common humanity. And what a gift that is. Uh, I look forward to more of that. So hopefully we have less of those spaces where people feel the need to act with aggression and violence and hatred and, uh, ignorance. Yeah.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Wow. Well, what a powerful episode. I mean, I'm just, I'm, I'm going to be beaming off this conversation for the rest of the day. I just, So grateful. Amazing. What a gift. Maybe that's what we need to name this episode. What a gift.

Kat Primeau:

Yeah,

Mimi Gonzalez:

we're

Kat Primeau:

finding the gifts. Yes.

Mimi Gonzalez:

Um, but with that, before we wrap up, is there, where can people find you, where can they connect with you, where can they work with you, learn from you, and amplify your amazing work?

Kat Primeau:

Thank you so much, Mimi. Um, if folks would like to check out my work, uh, with Good Grief Doula, they can do that at www. goodgriefdoula. com. Um, and Instagram and Facebook at good grief doula. Um, my band is sumeau, S U M E A U. Um, and yeah, I have a lot of stuff online, right? So, uh, it depends on what you're curious about, but, um, those are the main avenues. Yeah, maybe on the, um, YouTube video, you could have an up next, uh, that song that I mentioned and folks who resonate can check that out if they'd like. So all the things, right. And it's like, we have the rest of our lives to do all these tasks that we are finding for ourselves, but the meaning is there and the confidence. is there because we're grounded in this love and these communities. So,

Mimi Gonzalez:

yeah, amazing. Well, there you have it folks. Thank you so much for tuning in for this moving and powerful and creative episode. I'm still, I'm still caught on the whole Rehaha bilitation like, that's so clever and I'm just like, I'm shook. It also is like super affirming because I'm actually having a few comedians on the show this season, um, so that, those episodes are going to be fire. I already know. Um, but I, your voice also has such a calming, like whatever I was crying about this morning, like doesn't even matter. Like your voice kind of put me at ease and just, I could listen to your voice all day, so I definitely can't wait to hear, uh, your music. But thank you again so much, Kat. Um, everyone tuning in, I hope you really enjoyed this episode. Please let us know your thoughts. Please contact Kat on Instagram. You can contact griefsense on Instagram as well. Um, yeah, we want to know what you thought about our episode. So with that, thank you so much and we'll see you next time. Goodbye. griefsense familia, that wraps up another episode of the grief sense podcast. If this resonated with you, please feel free to share with someone who will appreciate it and tell a friend to tell a friend. Also, I'm a firm believer that feedback is a gift. So, you know, I'm just saying, I won't be mad if you decide to leave a review and a rating of your experience on the podcast so far, also let's help each other find community in grief and let's amplify these stories far and wide. Thank you for tuning in, in solidarity, y con mucho amor. Mimi