Antonio Morales on: the liberated grief self

In this episode, we're joined by Antonio Morales, the visionary founder of The Liberated Self, who invites us on a transformative journey exploring the concepts of the oppressed and liberated self. Antonio delves deep into how embracing our liberated self inspires us to live with purpose, foster deeper connections, and build a sense of community.

Antonio opens up about the profound impact of losing his adopted mother, Mami Helen, and other close family and friends at a young age. He shares his personal narrative of growing up in dilapidated housing in Brooklyn, NY and how these experiences, intertwined with his grief, propelled him to pursue a career as a psychotherapist with a focus on decolonization.

This episode goes beyond the physical realm as Antonio discusses the profound influence of the metaphysical world, particularly how our loved ones and ancestors continue to connect with us through dreams. He also touches upon the intriguing use of Florida Water, which needs no explanation because IYKYK.

For a deeper understanding of how grief can be a pathway to liberation and a more authentic self, tune in to this captivating episode. Don’t forget to get tapped in with Antonio and his work by following @theliberatedself on Instagram and visiting www.theliberatedself.org.

#TheLiberatedSelf #Grief #MentalHealth #griefsense

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Transcript

Welcome back listeners of grief sense. I am so happy to have my guest Antonio Morales with us today. He is the founder of the liberated self therapeutic services. And I am so excited for our conversation because we're going to talk about all the things y'all between oppression, between white supremacy, between grief, between honoring our ancestors.

I mean, this conversation is going to be a really good one. So buckle up. It's going to be great. It's going to be a great ride.  I'm super grateful for how often I get to meet really dope people off of LinkedIn.

And because of Pabel Martinez, another griefsense guest that's how I met Antonio. So it's just the beauty of social media, the beauty of connection and just the power of storytelling and how we are literally unified by traumas that we've experienced by really hardships that we've had to overcome, but we unfortunately are bounded by.

Our oppression, but in that we can find liberation and power and just connection and community. So without further ado, Antonio, please feel free to introduce yourself and we'll jump into today's conversation. 

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Mimi, for inviting me onto your platform to have this conversation, because I'm thinking, you know, I think about these conversations around sort of, sort of grief and loss and thinking about.

 The people that have passed on from our family members, our loved ones, um, as a celebration of them, you know what I'm saying? Like to focus on conversations that sort of center our loved ones who we lost. I think, um, really is important because it keeps them alive. Right. And I think that's what I love about this particular conversation or these types of conversations is that we're able to celebrate.

The people who we love the most or people we cared about the most and who are no longer with us, but that to me, that's a celebratory thing. Yes. 

Yes. Amen 

so briefly, my name is Antonio Morales. As you just said, I'm the founder of the liberated self therapeutic services, which is a mental health, private practice.

That's really sort of framed around looking at the adverse impact of white supremacy and how we work through that specifically as black and brown folk. And so, I provide psychotherapeutic services as well as programming, which looks like trainings or workshops that allow people to have. Uh, conversations around the lived experience in an experiential way.

So it's really, um, the design of a lot of my programmings, like the liberated self seminar, for example, is really designed to have people sort of have breakthroughs. Um, despite the fact that you might be experiencing , an experience inside of an oppressive context. And with that being said, the whole point of my work is really psychological liberation, because I feel like when we're thinking about our healing and evolutionary process, we need to be liberated psychologically, um, first, in my opinion, in order to then have access to our ability to heal.

and evolve as human beings. 

I love everything you said, because we are literally conditioned to think how we think today. Right. And I love on your website, you talk about this internalized oppression, right?

This internalized colonization that we are all. Essentially programmed by since we are kids and we are essentially forced to assimilate into the dominant culture, right? And in doing so, we are directly removed from our roots. Our history is censored and honestly, outright, just completely taken away from us, and that benefits the dominant culture.

That's, that's just what that is. And so I love the work that you're doing, especially I love when mental health professionals and therapeutic services center this decolonization, you know, framework and, and, and principles, because it's very important to realize that therapy was originally created. Right.

So that people could go back to work. It's like for you to talk about what you need to talk about, but we going to do what we got to do to get you going back to work. Okay. And we are more, and something we often talk about on the grief sense podcast is we are more than what we produce. We are more than the traumas that we've had to overcome and we are resilient, but why are we are resilient?

We are resilient because we had no other choice. Okay. And so I think that with our conversation today,  we're going to get into that being resilient while it is something that I think is natural for our people. It's literally in our DNA, we stand on the shoulders of the ancestors that we're going to honor.

Right. And because. Because they were we are and that's something I talk about frequently on here, but oh you gotta be so excited like this That's too much. My brain is like going rapid fire, but We are here. I'm so grateful you are here But Antonio, I would love for you to as much as You know, as little or as much as you want to share with your story.

Um, before we jump into that, is there anyone that you would like to honor today? And it's definitely okay if there's multiple people I absolutely 

want to honor someone right now, but I also want to say something to what you said around sort of our lived experience, particularly as black and brown marginalized folk.

 One of the ways that we internalize white supremacy is like what happens a lot of times and we don't really, we're not really aware of is 

the way we internalize it is like we create another version of ourselves, which I call the oppressed self that actually ends up running our lives. Right. And so, and, and, and the reason why that self, which is like a doppelganger version of ourself. Um, and so it's, it's the, it's the humanized version of ourselves, the inferiorized version of ourselves.

Um, the reason, so that, that version of ourselves, the oppressed self takes over us in such a way because we live in an environment that's constantly nurturing and feeding that version of the self. And It could lead to so many things right at this adverse impact is really, um, thinking about and taking into consideration not only the psychological impact, but the spiritual impact.

And so how we sort of get under the spell of white supremacy where. Where we exist in a small version in a sort of shrunken version of ourselves. And so the real, the real gist of my work is really being able to have us recognize the oppressed self, that doppelganger that works against us so that we can then tap into the liberated self, which is why it's the liberated self therapeutic services, because the liberated self is really the key to sort of having us recognize and exist inside our fullest potentiality.

And I think, and then sort of thinking about. Who are we going to honor today? Or who am I going to honor today? Um, there's no other way in the world that we can honor our ancestors then to become the bestest version of ourselves possible. Because back to what you were saying, Mimi, we're like, we're standing on our ancestors shoulders and there's a lot of sacrifice.

Um, that they had to sort of, uh, take on, you know, whether they knew it or not, whether it was intentional or not, whether it was forced upon them or not in order for us to be here right now. Right. And so, um, if we can see the fullness of our potentiality and live and exist inside of that and life, then we honor our ancestors.

And so with that being said, the one person I want to honor today. Um, and there's many, but who sticks out for me today is mommy Helen, who is my informally adopted mom. So she is like my spiritual mother who, when I was a little kid, um, you know, like sometimes moms, because. They're dealing with stuff like poverty and lack of resources that they sort of leave you on somebody else's stoop.

Well, that's what happened to me. And so my biological mom left me on someone else's stoop in essence. And the woman, mommy Helen took me in as a child, even though my biological mom was still in my life, mommy Helen, so became her partner in raising me. And so I sort of grew up with two moms. So the non biological mom, which is mommy Helen, and then my biological mom.

And so, um, Mommy Helen passed away back in, uh, she had a stroke in 2000 and I think it was eight. And then she passed away in, I believe 2009. It was a long time ago. But here's the thing. The reason why I get the dates mixed up is because mommy Helen has never left me. Like she literally, sometimes, cause I literally dream about her often, like maybe three or four times out of the week.

So she's constantly, since, since the moment she's gone, she's here. And now one time I said, ma. But you have somewhere to go, like, I don't know, like heaven or whatever. Like, why are you still here? Like, are you supposed to be like on some like universal journey, like floating through space? I don't know. And she's never left.

And it's so interesting because, and his thing about what a blessing that is, that mommy Helen is still around me, is that I know that my adopted brothers and sisters don't see her in dreams. Right. But I see her all the time and I'm like, yo, ma was good. And so it never, I don't, it doesn't feel like she, even though she's crossed physically, she's never left me spiritually.

Right. She's always been consistent, even in death. She's been here with me. So I want to honor mommy Helen today. Cause last night I did have a dream as well. I don't remember what the dream was. But I think she was preparing me for this conversation today. So mommy Helen, I want to honor her. 

Well, mommy Helen, hello, grateful to meet you in spirit.

And thank you for, for being here and for nurturing this wonderful soul that I have the presence of being in today. Um, thank you so much for, for sharing that. And I echo everything you said. I mean, that's literally why we are here. I think it's so powerful that when we take the. You know, responsibility and the initiative and the commitment to honor our loved ones after they died in the physical form, right?

I think that you kind of open yourself up to, if you are seeking that connection with your loved ones who have transitioned, if you are open to that, if you're open to seeing what can come of that, I think that beautiful things can, can really happen. And like, just because they are not here in the physical form doesn't mean that you can't.

Still honor them in the way they deserve to. And that's, I live and breathe that daily, you know, like there's so many interactions that we have today that are influenced by the people who have died in our lives, you know what I'm saying? And like our mannerisms, the way we talk, the, the way we handle challenges, like everything, you know, and I just think it's really important to honor them.

And I really feel that people who have died or walking. We're once walking universes. Like they experienced a whole world, their own traumas, their own milestones, their own accomplishments, like, and the world deserves to, to know about that. You know? So that's why I think it's so important. So what 

you just said to me reminded me that.

We still exist inside of their legacy. You know, like the fact that we was touched by the human beings that who are no longer with us physically, um, doesn't mean that their legacy still is not living on within us. And I, that, that's a beautiful thing. Like just, just like, just like being present to that, you know, like just being present to that is like 

a beautiful thing.

And tailing off of that, because inviting people to share their story on this platform, imagine the different mommy Hellens in other people's stories. People are going to see themselves in your story, you know, and actually my, my mom, I really relates to your story as well, honestly, um, because she has her biological mother, but she had, you know, my grandmother, who's really my godmother.

who basically took, took us in and helped us out growing up when things were really hard. So it's, it's just, it's just beautiful. I, I just can't wait to see, you know, who we can impact with, with your story. So just thank you for being here and for sharing it. So. Absolutely. 

Absolutely. 

So definitely got some questions for you today.

Alright, alright, alright. And I'm excited. Um, but you talked, you talked a little bit about, not so much like remembering what the dream was that you had last night with Mommy Helen, but just this This concept of getting ready for this conversation today or getting ready for conversations like this, right?

Because there are going to be times where if you're not intentionally carving out space to talk about these things, grief, loss, trauma, dealing with everything that comes with that. It's going to hit you unexpectedly or expectedly if, you know, if you are intentionally carving that time out, but how, and I know we talked a little bit about it before we hopped on to record, but how would you recommend for people to kind of get in that space or to get in a.

healthy space, if you will, to be ready to have these types of conversations. Like what are some things that you do, or maybe some things that you tell your clients on how to get ready to handle these really tough 

conversations? Good question. Um, well, I mean, obviously it always depends on people's cultural backgrounds and what their traditions are and their practices.

So it really varies depending on. where they come from. Um, I think that's an important point to make because everyone's culture looks different. Everyone's spiritual practices look different. Um, for me today, you know, when I think, first of all, thinking about this conversation already, cause well, I just wanted to make sure that I'm clear about like, this is a constant conversation for me anyway, even when I'm not speaking about it verbally, right?

Like even I'm not having a conversation with another human being, like I'm always in touch with sort of the spirit world. Now, there's so much to be  learned about that world for me. Um, there's so much development around that, that I know I have to sort of embark on as far as a journey. So there's so much left to be seen around that conversation.

But, um, how I prepared today, like one of the things that reminds me of like mommy Helen and also my other ancestors is Florida water. Yep. So the Florida water is. A staple in my crib, like. Even when my family comes over and we having a barbecue or we having a family night or whatever it is, like, there's going to be a moment that I'm going to break out the Florida Water.

Everybody knows it. Okay. Right. So it was like, so then I'll take the Florida water. This is part of the tradition, right? What I've seen mommy Helen and my well, I see that dude and they put it on their neck, right? To sort of ground them inside of whatever space they're in. And so I go right around. I don't care what we're doing.

Okay. Like if we in the backyard, we in the front, no matter what, I'm coming with the Florida of the water and I'm going to go like this to you. And my family knows that this is part of the tradition and they're like, and because they know that's part of Abuela Cita, like the best. Because mostly, Abuela Cita is my mother's mom, who is another like.

Figure that, uh, has passed on and who exists in my life in such a way, still, um, different than mommy Helen, but still is there. Right. And so what I see that's constantly on my mind as well. And so, um, till we do the, I do the Florida water, either sage or the Palo Santo, um, back in the day, I used to do the cigar.

Right here. 

We got, we got the sage and the Palo Santo today. 

Cause, cause I, when I see that was, um. Sort of like an esperetita that and so she would be one of the woman in the community where people will come to her house that you would like the candles and do the readings and do the cleansings and stuff like that.

And so I've inherited some of that that I think. It's part of how I even do my clinical work, right? When I think about psychotherapy.  Those are some of the things that I've taken on and then I put my beads on cause, Abuela Cita gave me my first beads. Right. Um, my first set of beads a long, long time ago before she passed on.

And I actually lost those set that big set of beads at the beach when I was with my colleagues one time, cause I guess we was drinking way too much. And stuff. So I just left it like on some beach chair. And, um, so I got, so I put the beads on as well as a, as a, an honorship of Abuela Cita in particular, um, that's, this is for Abuela Cita

and so when I put the beads on, and so there's various practices that I take on to ground myself in conversations around sort of the spirit world or loss and grief, but because we know that loss and grief or grief and loss is part of. Us losing our family members. We can't get past that process. Right?

Right. Um, even though through time, um, Well, it depends on the person. I can't speak for everyone, but for me, um, because I, I feel like the answers are always around me. Um, the loss and grief lasts, but it doesn't, it's not prolonged. The suffering of it is not prolonged for me. That's different for other people.

So I just want to make sure that I'm sensitive about that. And so when it comes to like clients, how do I prepare them? Um, because of my own lived experience, some of the clients, a lot of them are black and Brown, most of all, I'm a black and Brown. Um, they, uh, have similar cultural, uh, Shared experiences.

And so I normalize,  when they share with me that they had an ancestor coming to their dream, right? I sort of support them in exploring what that, what is that? Like, what's that about? Right. And then I share about my own lived experience specifically with mommy Helen and other ancestors that often visit me.

And, um, so I normalize it for them. That's part of, um, the way our ancestors communicate with us and ain't nothing pathological about that. Meaning in a Eurocentric framework, if you go to a psychotherapist and share about the ancestors or praying to the ancestors of the lighted camp, whatever it is that we do, you can be pathologized over that.

Like, you sure you don't got like, it looks like you fit the criteria for schizophrenia. Yeah. Hearing voices. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. But that's not what it is for us. Okay. And so I just want to, so just normalizing is letting them know that first of all, it's okay to grieve the loss of the people that you love when they are lost, when they do sort of crossover.

 And there's also ways that you can honor them through various practices. And I share my own with them as well. The same thing I just shared about the Florida water and stuff. Yeah. 

 Thank you for sharing that. And it goes to show how important it is to have culturally informed mental health professionals or just a culturally informed. community around you because there are different aspects to receive that healing, right? Like obviously people will resort to seeking a therapist, but you know, it's so heavily ingrained in our culture that a lot of people like, Oh, you're weak.

If you go to a therapist or you're weak, if you go seek help, you know, but you see other folks kind of taking. Different channels of expressing their, their traumas and things like that. And so I think whatever medium people choose to get help, it's important that people are aware that it's at least in my humble opinion, every time I've seeked out therapy, I've made sure that I had someone who was either black or Latina.

And I also did have a Jewish therapist, she was just amazing. Like she was just, she was killing it. She was killing it. She was a queer, older Jewish woman who just like, we were bonded and some of the things that, you know, our cultures have shared, but you know, just like finding people who.

Align with your values and maybe share some of those cultural, um, norms. And so I just think that's really important that you just share that and normalize that.

So question, how would you say that your, the physical losses that you've experienced, would you say that that influenced your career choice or why you chose to go into therapy?

Like. Talk to the people about that. Like, is there any aspect of your grief story that influenced what you decided to do for 

your career? I absolutely look, here's the thing. Um, one of the things I said earlier around, I said, I talked about my mom sort of leaving me on the stoop, um, is because my family.

comes from poverty, right? And so, um, we got a start in Brooklyn, New York and Red Hook. Um, that was like our home base from my mother's side of the family. And so we existed in poverty, which is obviously sort of an iteration of white supremacy. And when you think about sort of the violence that came with that, the sort of addiction that came with that, sort of not even eating, not eating the proper diets.

Um, having the dilapidated housing, uh, I mean, living in the hood is really something that takes a toll on us physically, right? And, and, and as a result of that experience, um, with my mother's side of the family, a lot of my aunts and uncles died young, right? And they didn't get to live a life where they was able to like see their grandchildren and so on and so forth.

There's so many people sort of dream about when they have children. And a lot of my cousins. Well, with our parents. Right. And so, um, I understood in a way, I didn't have the language to describe what it was that my family was dealing with. I do now. Um, I understand now. Um, first of all, I understood that something was off, right.

When it comes to like, why is everybody dying around me? The people I love, like, like Tio and Titi and Titi and Tio and all of that. Right. Well, like, what's that about? Like, what, what is that about? Right. And so, um, and that's about how white supremacy functions when it comes to cutting our lives short. and it's because when we live in an environment that's dehumanizing, um, sometimes we take on coping, uh, ways of coping, right. Practices that further dehumanizes us and sort of has us take on practices that are self destructive. Right. And so all of that plays a role in, the legacy of my family and the experiences that, um, they had to endure, that ultimately led to sort of early death.

 And so what I can say about that is that there's, there's suffering that's connected to that experience, to that lived experience. And so I was always curious about what is that suffering about for us, right? For black and brown folk in particular, like what is that suffering about?

And so I always, cause I also was suffering, right? There was a point in my life for a long time that I was suffering because of this experience. I was just curious about that. Like, it was like a philosophical conversation that I was sort of on a quest to understand what it was that we was dealing with.

So I ended up basically in the self help section of the library to have a better understanding of what it was. That I was dealing with, which obviously was influenced by my experience with my family as well. So there's no separation. Is that like, I lived on the island to myself. I'm surrounded by community who I've seen either die young or who are suffering going through some stuff.

Right. That I didn't, so I, I self help book section is where I ended up at in the library before there was even like a real self help section. Right. like back in the day. So, um, trying to understand the psychology behind our lived experience, but that wasn't enough because that was coming from a Eurocentric perspective, the sort of books that were written, right?

They were written by people who were not living in the hood, who were not  dealing with the, the, the various iterations of white supremacy, the way black and brown folk deal with it. And so that didn't speak to me fully. Yeah, that whole part. Right. So that didn't speak to me fully. So I ended up going to the black history section of the library to figure out something about my people, where we come from to understand, well, something is off. The self help book section is not really giving me the information I need. So let me go to the black history section and see, like, if conversations around, like, liberation would inform me more. So somehow those two worlds came together.

Yeah. Right. I took pieces from here, pieces from there that I had to like take pieces from my own lived experience because we have to understand that as human beings, we're doing our own field research, even if you're not a field researcher because our lived experience informs us. And so with all my curiosity and my lived experience and understanding, plus I'm a journal writer.

So I've always was self reflective since I was 13 years old, so I've always been self reflective. And having these large questions as a child that I couldn't answer. So that sort of. Framed me or prepared me for the journey of looking for these answers around what we're dealing with as a community.

 And so because of all of that, because of all that suffering, it inspired me to want to do this work today. Right? So it's very much part of my work. Um, I also shared with you earlier about Abuela Cita who seems like esperetita that people will come to her crib and she would do all the readings and stuff.

That's also inside of me. So my psychotherapeutic work is not just psychotherapeutic work that I'm doing. I am, obviously, but there's that sort of 

other component. It got that sazon, it got that sazon, it got the different aspects of it, you know? 

Right, and so there's that, because when I, when I speak to clients, even for the first time, I go into their world.

And they have no idea how, because I don't know them from a hole in the wall, and but it's because I've learned to be in touch with something about their vibration that I could pick up on. But that comes from that sort of lineage that I come from, right?  Whether they're women or older men sort of being in that.

It's like 

the 

healing, the healing space, you know, you're a healer, yeah. I'm like low key supposed to be a shaman, but I wasn't, unfortunately, I wasn't born. 

It's the low key for me though, wait, it's the 

low key? Low key, really low key I'm supposed to be a shaman, like I'm just saying. 

You gotta talk more about that though, like how low key, how are you supposed to I need to know.

Yeah. Because, um, the work that I'm, the work that I do is, even though it's, I'm dealing with the psychology, it's really spiritual work. I mean, it's spiritual, right? Metaphysical, right? Um, and how I sort of do my work is ultimately getting people to tap into their metaphysical self. Right. I won't, I won't say spirit, right?

But I do say metaphysical, which is vibrational. And so  as a result of colonialism, I wasn't born in the island of Puerto Rico, nor was I born in Africa. I was born in Brooklyn, but if I was born in a village in Puerto Rico or in Africa, I probably would have been a shaman or a medicine man.

Right. That's the low key what it is. Right. And so, and so, and so, and so, I know that that sort of spirit or that sort of uh, divine calling is in me. And right now in this context and where I'm at in my life currently it looks like psychotherapy. 

I love that. I, I truly, like, I resonate so much with that.

Right.  I mean, that's a whole nother conversation for another day regarding like the, the colonization of what Puerto Ricans definitely have experienced. That's all. And Dominicanos, like the whole, yeah, that's a whole lot for AfroLatinidad in general, like that's a whole, yeah. But with that, you know, it's like.

Having those ties to our lineage in the various ways, I agree with you, like, similar to you, I feel like my mission on this planet, or like, if I were in those spaces, right, if I grew up in those spaces, it would definitely be the combining of healing and the arts, like, that would be my jam all the time, right?

And so, Cause I feel like I'm a creative first and foremost, but I've always been a healer. Like I've always, I'm that friend everyone comes to for advice. You know, I'm that person that's like, Hey, like, I don't want to talk about me right now. We talking about you. Like, what are you going through? Like, you know, you got to listen to your people without trying to make it about yourself.

And that's something I really want to pull out of that real quick, especially with this podcast. I really want to center the stories. Like, obviously I relate to these stories. That's the whole reason why, you know, I'm starting this because I relate to this, but there's power in having people share their stories and normalizing the practice that when someone is sharing their story, you don't be like, Oh yeah, I understand.

I went through that same thing. And then I talked about what happened to me. You know, that's like a big thing in therapy that I learned, you know, like when someone talks about themselves. You are there to kind of ask how you can support them in that moment and make it about them. And then obviously if something comes up in the conversation where, you know, you, you, you can talk about yourself, then do that, you know, but it's, it's just normalizing the practice.

We are here to, and that's another Eurocentric behavior that we learned is like, everything's about us. Everything's about the individual. Everything's about just like. Like loneliness is the number one, I think, epidemic in America, honestly. It really is. Lord have mercy. You know, and it's like really just, I think I'm seeing a big trend and I love to see it.

Big trend with, you know, I'll be completely frank with you. I don't, I don't say black. I don't say Black or brown people. I don't say, you know, BIPOC because I, okay. I'm talking about Black people. I'm talking about Latino people. I'm talking about people who may identify as Arab or Muslim. Like anyone who is of that minoritized identity.

We are not minorities. We have been minoritized because really we are the global majority. If you really think about it. Okay. So with that, though, you see this collectivist. Style of approaching just community centric way of approaching problems. Literally, I think in a lot of places outside of America, and then when you grow up here, it's like, everything is just, Oh, me, me, me, me, me, you know?

And it's just like really reframing that, like, how can we all heal together? We all have things, we all have traumas that, you know, we don't really talk about the things that we are healing from, but how can we do it together? And just like really normalizing that, you know? No, so much. I know, I know we were meant to meet.

First of all, like this was just destiny. I was meant to meet you. I feel it. 

I feel like I feel like you, you probably a low key shaman too, because you got a bunch of mushrooms behind you. I don't know what that's about, but it's giving me psychedelic vibes. I'm just saying your background is just not your background because it is.

You know what I'm saying? That was, that's intentional. 

Yes. A lot of healing properties. There's like, there's a big skull. So it's funny. So it's So there's like life. I see the skull now. I didn't see the skull before. Okay. Vibrant. Yeah, for the listeners tuning in, you have to watch on YouTube to kind of get the full experience.

But it's flowers and mushrooms and life growing out of the skull and I, it's just a testament that life after you die in the physical form and also healing properties from plants and things. That's how we get life, you know? So all of that. So literally I saw this and I was like, Ooh, that's going, that's going to be my background for my podcast 

and it makes sense.

So it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. Yes, absolutely. Perfect background. 

Thank you. Yes. Um, so definitely want to hold. space to talk about, you know, what would your, I'm just really curious. Okay. This is kind of, kind of pivoting to what we were just talking about, but I'm just curious for the different like funerals and memorial services that you've attended.

Like, have you given thought about what yours? What's the vibe? What's the experience that you would want your personal memorial service to have? Like, yeah, like, what would people wear? What would you wear? Like, what music would be played? Like, have you ever thought about that? And like, Can you share a little bit about that?

I know it's a very personal question, but like it gets, no, no, no, 

no, no, but you know, here's the thing. One of the things about me is that I'm so community oriented. And so I'm always gathering my people specifically at my home, right. At my crib right here where I'm at sitting down right now. And I'm always inviting family over because here's the thing.

Like I noticed that. It isn't going to be shady on purpose, but I noticed that family, certain family members will fly a fucking cross the globe to go to a funeral, but they won't go to the next state or to the next town to go to your barbecue. And that really pisses me off, right? Like, I don't even, I don't even want to see you at no one's, don't even be here.

Why he wasn't at the barbecue that I've been inviting you to for the last three years. But you hear about a funeral crying. Did you, did you think about seeing that person while they were actually alive? Did you go, did you attend whatever they invited you to, if they invited you to something, right? So my thing, so that's an interesting question because it sort of brought the trigger that for 

me.

That's right. Let's talk about it. Yeah. That's powerful. Like I really, really 

like get upset about the fact that we only honor people after they're dead versus honoring them while they're still here while they're here. Right. And so I'm a collector and gatherer of my community, right? I be bringing people in like, yo, cuz over here, cuz over there.

Like my siblings, right? Like I am really known for that because I believe in the sort of collective community experience because I'm not. So, because what you was describing earlier was through a white supremacist construct was individualism. We learned that from white supremacy. We gotta, we gotta remember we are village community people.

Right. You know what I'm saying? We are supposed to be together in community. Not separate, divided, and conquered. We're supposed to be... Unified. And so I practiced it in my day to day life when it comes to my family members and the people who I love and most care about. I'm always creating spaces for us to be together, whether it's barbecues, whether it's holidays, and so on and so forth.

And, um, and so when I think about if there was a moment that I would die. Okay, you're going to have, I want the same experience that you all had and that we all had while you were in my crib. So that means you turning on the freestyle music, the new Jack swing music. Okay. You're turning on all the music that we all grew up with.

Oh, for my generation, we grew up with that music and it reminds us, and this is music that never. It's timeless music, freestyle, and new jack swing era, like that is timeless music. So we constantly play that music here as well with some other new stuff and the salsa and stuff, but mostly freestyle and new jack swing.

And that's what I want to be played at my funeral. And I want people that are having a good time being as loud as they want to be, because that's what we do. We want to express ourselves and be self expressed that is completely appropriate. No fights and no none of that negatives. We don't got time for that.

We love each other up. Right. Cause I had the same thing in this crib. Like when I invite people over to my crib and I do my little gatherings and stuff, I'm all about loving people up. That's why I like, I don't know if I shared this during the podcast, but I did share with you earlier that I go around when my family comes around and I, and I, you know, I put the Florida water on them.

You know what I'm saying? Like this. They wait for the moment because the moment is going to come. Eventually they're going to get the Florida water, but that's really my expression of love for them, right. Taking care of them and sort of thinking at the same time, honoring the ancestors and their practices and being like, we are all protected.

We are all good. We are all love. Right. And I want that to be at my funeral to feel like that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And then take your little shots or whatever you got to do, smoke a little, you know, your joints or whatever y'all do. Cause everybody does their own thing and then cry a lot. I want you to cry a lot, like cry, like lose your breath over me because not because like

you better motherfucking cry. I want to see snot. Okay. See, I want all of that, like be ridiculous, throw yourself on the coffin, because that's what I would do. Yeah. For you. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, and it's so crazy because recently a cousin of mine, right, it's messy, but it's beautiful because that's how we get to grieve, right?

We don't have to be so like. Perfect and prim and proper, like people go, fuck out of here, like, let's be like, we really having a party to celebrate someone's life, right? No, they're no longer with us. They're over there in the coffin or in the box, wherever they at, you know what I'm saying? Let's celebrate them fully.

Let's not make this like, and there's nothing wrong with being proper and prim. But not at my funeral. Time and place. Even my most proper friend, Titi, better turn up. Okay, I'm just saying it. Because you never, because you never know when your time is coming. But if that happens, you know, it's soon or whatever.

I'm not saying that it is. Better not be, gotta be mad. But turn up, Titi. Yeah. The ones, and they, she or they know who I'm talking about. They have saw this. Um, because it's really a celebration of the person that, you know, we just lost. To give them life. Bring life into their funeral. I don't got time for like quietness and be everybody's don't be well behaved.

Act up. Don't fight. No violence. That's what I'm not. You know, some, some funerals, people get violent and they start beating each other up and you know, and I'm not talking about that. That's not me. Yeah, I want us to love each other up  that's how I will see my funeral in a long sort of winded kind of way.

That is the vision I have. 

You know, it's interesting. And thank you so much for sharing it because that's beautiful. Two things came to mind though, right, that it's usually ingrained in us, I think also from older generations as well, like, Oh, don't cry for me. Don't cry for me. And like, I just love that you're so raw and so open about that.

Like nah you better cry for me. Like I'm kind of the same, kind of the same way. Um, and listen, cry, feel all the feels, however you want to feel them, you know, but I won't be mad if you cry about me. Um. But the other day I was actually getting breakfast with a good friend of mine. His name is, shout out to Jeremiah.

Hey Jeremiah! Hey, yes, we'll shout him out. And, you know, we've had so many conversations about how, you know, just about this podcast, about grief, about loss, right? Um, because his wife. Really resonates with everything that we're talking about today. And the other day he was having a conversation with his son and he's younger.

I think I don't, I forget which, which son it was that said it, but he's younger. He's a child. And he said, you know, dad funerals, right? Like the word fun is in funerals. It's a funeral. So I want people to have fun. At my funeral and like, I was like, yo, he's so young and look at him like that's already his like mentality and it goes to show though that the younger generations now like Gen Alpha, Gen, Gen Z.

I'm, I'm stuck between Gen Z and Millennial. So I'm called the Zillennial. I'm like that hybrid generation. Oh, that's kind of interesting. Yeah. And then there's, you know, you have a Gen X and then baby boomers and then so on and so forth. But I think it's just interesting that the younger the generations are like the people that are growing up are so normalized by this because death has just been so in our face all the time that I don't know, I'm just like really thinking about them like, yo, he's on to something like let's let's plan our funerals, y'all, like, Yo, for 

real.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. No, I, I think, 'cause look, here's the thing, you know, death is not easy, right? I mean, it's not, it's fucking sucks When somebody that we love dies. I mean, I have, again, I've experienced death over and over and over and over again when it comes to my close family members and friends and so on and so forth.

And so, um, but it's part of life. It's gonna happen eventually, right? Right. Somebody's turn is next, whether it's our turn or someone else's turn. Right. And so, um, and I think, you know, for me, like, because I believe in the spirit world, I don't ever feel like they're gone. I mean, forever, or I don't feel like even though they're gone physically, I'm real clear that There's another realm outside of what I can perceive through my sort of limited perception as a human being, right?

Because I feel like there's a transition that happens that I'm really confident about and, and comfortable with acknowledging, you know, so that, and so to have fun at a funeral. Um, I mean, especially if it's their vibe as well, like, cause it might not be their vibe. So then you might be like, yeah, they might be a boring people in real life.

If you're boring and you die, I'm not going, I'm just not going. Cause I'm gonna be bored. But if they are fun personalities, I can't do it. True. Like don't die because then I'm going to be like, Nope, I'm gonna be bored. So. It also depends on the vibration of the person and how they showed up in life to sort of celebrate them that way as well.

Yeah. 

Yeah. Honor, honor how they want to be honored, you know, um, but I love, I mean, but it's, it's, it's a very true statement that there are going to be people that tune into this that are not necessarily kind of open. To this metaphysical world or concepts that we're talking about, or open to the idea of the spirit world.

And I just also want to normalize that as well, right? Because everyone has different ways of processing on how they connect with their loved ones, if at all. But if you're not definitely, this is a reminder to do that in whatever way. makes sense for you. Um, but do you have any thoughts about that for people who are kind of not as open to the metaphysical world?

Like how would you as a therapist kind of advise them to, honor their loved ones or talk about or honor their grief? 

It's so hard because I feel like because I primarily work with black and brown folk, people of African descent, like this is part of our cultural language, the spirit world and ancestors.

So I don't necessarily have. Uh, have those, I don't have to have those conversations really, right? There's not many people that I've engaged with through a therapeutic sort of lens that are not already aware of the ancestor world and so on and so forth. So, so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, maybe I'm just not the right therapist for you. 

And you know what? That's kind of exactly where I was hoping you would say because it's, it's important to find healers or therapists, mental health professionals that align with how you align. But I also just want to, you know, just take time to normalize that.

It's okay. It's not for everyone, but it is important to understand that these things are so heavily ingrained in, in Latino cultures, Afro Latino cultures, African, Caribbean, right? Like it's so ingrained in our culture. And so it's like, yeah. And I love that you talked about that today. I love that you talked about that today.

Cause it's like. It's so, it's just validating, you know, um, but to, yeah, go ahead. 

I just want to say something to like add another layer to that, cause I think this is important. Um, when it comes to my own journey, cause I think people probably have similar journeys because of  the experiences that I had with religion, specifically Christianity growing up, I was turned off, really turned off to conversations around that.

Right. That whole, which I describe as mythology today. And because there was a lot of harm that it causes, it caused me and my community members that even though they still believe in the Christianity, nothing against that, I'm just saying for me. It was traumatic when I think about like how Christianity, the role Christianity played in my life, um, as a person who felt more connected to my abuela, who was more into the Orishas and the African spirituality.

And so as a result of my experience with Christianity and sort of the The way people who were in the Christian faith spoke about through the Anti-Black sentiments about my grandmother. It turned me off to all religion and all spirituality. So at one point in my life, I was an atheist. I don't believe in shit.

Period. The end. I really was like, I don't believe in God. I don't believe in the spirit world. I don't believe in nothing because I was getting so many mixed signals and nothing felt right for me. Like nothing, nothing affirmed me. Right. It all felt like political or politicized or felt very sort of contradictory.

Like some people believe some people are like, why are you bashing the Orishas? And then. When they're not bashing you Christian, like, and so on and so forth, like became this weird. So I just became an atheist. Like fuck everything. Like I'm not, I don't believe in shit, but you know what happened was what happened was because the ancestors kept coming into my dreams, right?

My loved ones, like as a regular routine, I could no longer call myself an atheist because my ancestors forced me into sort of. of recognizing the spirit world. No matter what I, no matter what I did to stay an atheist, I couldn't. Maybe I'm, I'm no longer, I can't think about religion as something that I will assign myself to, right, or commit my life to, but I definitely feel like Um, the ancestors took me out of that atheism conversation because there's no denying them.

I mean, you know, mommy Helen, like, like you stay haunting, right? There's no way I could deny that experience. It is what it is. And so there's no way I could call myself an atheist with mommy Helen still there when all of the ancestors. It's so interesting because I live where I live in the particular town that I live in New Jersey before I lived here.

I didn't realize that I was moving to a community where the cemetery where my ancestors are buried is right down the block. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. Okay. And so I realized that after I moved here, and I remember one time I was getting acquainted to my home and I was in my back room and I was having a moment and I literally sensed all of my ancestors standing in my backyard because the backyard is basically, if you keep going is where the cemetery is at.

I didn't know that at all. Wow. Until I moved here. So it was like, I was supposed to live here and then because of the ancestor, the work that has to be done with the ancestors, I believe. Wow. 

You, listen, my brain is rapid fire right now. Like you just said so many things that I think so many people will relate to.

Um, and what I would love to honor from that as well is the fact that, you know, a lot of us do have that trauma by religion, right? It's just like this, another form of indoctrination. Like, I definitely do feel that. Um, faith is a really big grief home or coping mechanism on how people deal with their grief.

And I think that's beautiful. Like, you know, have your faith, have the things that you believe in, right? I don't think there's one right way to live your life, right? Like all of us have different ways of living. And if faith You know, by, with, with whatever branch of religion or, you know, yeah, any religious practice that you, um, adhere to, like, do you, boo boo?

Like, that's it. That's what we all, we all have our different ways of, of living. Um, but something that I really appreciate that you said, because not a lot of people talk about that, is that religious based trauma and that it kind of disconnects us. What is God like God, you know, he wasn't there for me when, or she, you know, a lot of people think God, God's woman now, um, like where was God when I was at my lowest points?

Like, why did God let me go through those things? Or like, you always hear. Oh, but God is just testing us. But like, why is he putting us through this test in order to prove how strong I am? Right. So those are some of the things that I definitely realized growing up was a lot of religious trauma. And so I kind of just like my mom actually is atheist and my father, my, my dad that raised me was between being agnostic and a Buddhist.

So I had a lot of exposure to different types of thoughts, practices, while also going to church with my. My godmother, like I grew up in the church. I was in the choir like, you know, so for me I'm grateful for that experience that even though my mom was an atheist. She allowed me to kind of go through my own Journey and kind of like explore what what made sense for me, but after trauma after trauma after trauma I was like, I'm good with this.

I'm good with all that, you know, and then I just feel like I kind of Close myself off to everything. Mm-Hmm. , but similar to you? Uh mm-Hmm. , . A lot of signs in my dreams and just weird messages and signs that I would get, and I'm like, nah. Like there's, there's definitely something else out there. Yeah. And so I don't know what it is.

Like there's no. You know, I think that we, out of the human brain, we only use an X amount of percentage of our brain. Like I definitely think that if we allow ourselves to tap in, in whatever way that looks like, like, I don't know, I think beautiful things would be discovered. You know? So. Absolutely. 

And even, and even thinking about that in that way, like when like this, it is what it is, right?

Like sort of being tapped in and sort of thinking about, uh. The ancestors of what's beyond life. Like, first of all, that is a beautiful sort of, uh, a way that we can be reminded of. The possibilities that we have in life, right? What, what, what is possible in life? What can we manifest? And cause this, cause this, this is not it, right?

There's, there could be a possibility to something else. Then how do we, how do we use that knowingness to sort of make this a beautiful lived experience, right? What can we do to manifest an experience that really, um, Has that same magic, right? Yeah. Yeah. In some ways, the spirit world and thinking about the spirit world, there's a, there's a magical element to that, right?

This sort of supernaturalness around that, that sort of reminds me of how magical life is already. You know what I'm saying? And so. Just for people that do sort of who are tapped into, that's a sort of being presence, the magic that really life is this magical, because imagine this, right? You and I were having this conversation, but there's no way that you nor I can explain what's the life force in us that is allowing us in this moment to be alive.

Right. To have this, like, what, that's, there's no battery. That's the last time I checked, I'm not plugged into a wall. How is it that this organic being, this sort of natural, sort of, sort of being that came from the earth, It's like walking around existing in an experiencing life. That shit is magical 

as fuck.

Listen, uh, I just appreciate everything you said because that's literally why I started griefsense like, and everything you just described is griefsense it's like I feel that, especially, and I say this pretty frequently, but like after experiencing so many losses, I feel like it does allow you to tap into a consciousness that you might've not had access to before.

And And that manifests differently for other people, right? Other people are just completely shut down from it. They don't want to hear anything about that. They don't even want to connect with their loved ones. And, you know, that that's fine. It's a very normal response, but definitely need some help and healing through that.

But for those that are kind of open to to that and that healing process, like, for me, it's. It's a reminder that, yo, we're only here for a limited amount of time in the physical form. Right. What can we do to maximize this experience? And like, yo, like you said, grief, you're going to have days where it's, it's debilitating where it's, it's hard.

Like I cry so much all the time, you know, but with that, I think it's beautiful. Cause I'm allowing myself to feel, I'm allowing myself to connect with the memories of people that. Once walked this earth physically and with that it's a reminder that because they are I am They lived they lived presently and it's just a reminder that I do feel that I am Kind of living through multiple people and a lot of kind of similar to you a lot of people in my life have died at A very young age.

So I feel like there's this Pressure that I put on myself that I want to accomplish so many things in such a short amount of time before I die, so that way I can honor, uh, the people that have died and hello grief sense. Like, literally, I did this, so I can at least this was like, 1 of my biggest. Goals before I died was to create this podcast because now my family can have something of me when I die But also it's a way to honor my ancestors and then my guests ancestors, you know also So it's just I'm just so grateful that you said all of that because I was like, yeah Everything that I feel and say all the time Um, so I just thank you for that.

But like, also, I do want to bring it back to you and your story because you talked a lot about  this theme of dreams, right? And how that connected to the spiritual world. And so what we do here in griefsense, you know, we talk about, you know, how can we channel our grief through creative expression?

Right. And so. A lot of that, and you talked about that you journal, I'm a big journaler, a journaler, journalist, I don't know myself. And so I, I love prompts. Like I love these really big questions, open ended questions that we can really just think about and answer, like whatever comes to mind. And so I definitely want to bring that with you and your story.

So. Your prompt that you chose for today was to talk about or reflect on a dream that you had with the loved one that has died in your life and to kind of share your thoughts on it. Like, what do you make of these? And you've had multiple dreams, so I don't know how you want to take that, but what are some 

thoughts?

See, that was, that's it. I think for me, like, first of all, back to Mommy Helen, like, Mommy Helen has been a consistent sort of presence in my life, even in death, right? Even after she died. Like, she's literally in my dreams. All the time, like all the time, like all the time, you know what I'm saying? And so, and I don't, how I, I don't, there's no real way that I make sense of that, but it's almost like back to like this conversation that was happening with you just a few minutes ago around it, it forces me to surrender to, um, to the knowingness that there's something beyond this, this life, right.

 Because you can't, like, you can't. It can't be denied. I can't deny it. Like I know what I know, right. Based on my experiences and in those dreams, um, I'm being visited by my ancestors, right. Starting with mommy Helen. First and foremost, mommy Helen is the number one. haunter of my dreams. She haunts me constantly.

So an interesting, you know, here's an interesting thing. I want to sort of bring to your awareness. I didn't share. Um, in November of 2022, um, my best friend died, right? One of my best friends died and the day before. Okay. So I had a dream. He, he came into my dream. Um. And he was already sick, right? He was already dealing with health issues, but he came into my dream one particular night and that when he came, first of all, we haven't been cool for mad years, right?

Even though in theory, he's my best friend, but in practice, we haven't been cool for many years. Okay. So, but he came to my dream and a particular one particular night. I believe it was. November 7th or whatever it was the day before my mom's birthday. Not mommy Helen's, but my biological mom. And so I quickly went to Facebook and the next day when I got up and reached out to his sister and I said, yo, your, your brother came into my dreams and she was like, he's in hospice right now and he's experiencing the death rat.

Which the death rattle is when a person is on the way out, like they're not breathing. Right? And so there's like a rattling sensation that happens. So I knew so first of all, he came into my dreams because he was on his deathbed. Wow, right? And so and I instinctually knew that because I know that the dead they come to my dream even the people Died last week.

They'd be in my dreams a week after right right like my other cousin who passed away Previously before that, like a year before that, he also came into my dream after death, right? And they don't just come in my dreams. So I'm thinking about them. They're coming into my dreams. Cause they're letting me know that I could give it back to my family members.

You know what I'm saying? So it's not like, Oh, I'm just thinking about the knock. Cause there's other people that don't come into my dreams today. Don't fuck with me like that after they die. Right. And so, so then I spoke to Facebook and then, then the next day, which is my mother's birthday, I went to his place, to, to his hospice unit, where he was sort of in the bed, tubed up.

He wasn't conscious for many, for many, uh, days before that point. And I, I brought. Cause I know he's a spiritual dude, right? He's into the indigenous and the Native American stuff. And I, and I brought some seashells and the Florida Water and the, and the Native American music that I know he used to love back in the day.

And this dude was trying to move out of his comatose state. Okay. Like he wanted to talk to me and that was the most movement he has made since he's been in that it was. He was in the hospital for actually over a month at that point. Right. And so, but he was like making, I got, I want to speak. I want to speak something in him was rattling.

Right. Because of what I was doing for him, because I was honoring his way of his own sort of traditional way of doing things right for his spirituality. And then he passed away a week later. Okay. Now, so interesting that he comes into my dreams now, and our friendship, like, went back to the pure, the purity that it was before our humanity took over the friendship, right?

Our bullshit, right? And it's like, we, we, in death, Our friendship has gotten back to the source of who we used to be back in the day. Wow, that's so beautiful. Cause he's constantly, he's also constantly there. Right? And so, um, and this is not true for every person that I've lost. They're not all in my dreams, but certain individuals are who I consider my soulmates.

And so, so he is in my dream and, and, and, uh, and we communicate back to, in the way that we're back and reconnected to the source of our friendship. Right? Like the love we have for each other. We love each other. That's love. Like we best friends and that, that came back and so, and that's the beautiful thing about death that we don't understand is that that ego bullshit that we deal with here, that shit is gone.

Yeah. That shit is gone. And it's funny because when my stepdad died many years ago, my brother's father, he came into my dream and me and him did not have a great relationship. Okay. But he came into my dream and he was like, Pito, cause that's when they say, Pito, I've been suffering for so long and I didn't realize that I was holding on to stuff.

Like the way he showed up to me in that dream, he was like, he told me almost like, I didn't know why I was holding on to so much and I apologize. Right. And it was so, and I knew like it was so, and that's the beautiful thing that I feel like I've learned around about death is that. That shit that we deal with us, the ego shit that began us.

And so our feelings and stuff gone. Now we're getting back to this, to the source of who we are really, right. Our essence of who we are. And so dreams, that's what dreams remind me of is like, who do I get to be today in life? Because of their death. Could they remind me? I don't have to be driven by my ego.

I can be driven by the source, the essence of who I am, which is love. You know what I'm saying? And that's what my dreams tell me when I wake up the next day. I got who I got to love today. 

Like what's the message I got today? That is so like, I love everything you said and thank you so much for being vulnerable and for sharing that.

And I think again, a lot of people I think are going to seek some validation and everything that you shared. Like if they have some dreams and, and were visited by some loved ones in their dreams. So. Thank you so much for, for sharing all of that and, and your interpretation, you know, honestly, I would probably get the same exact interpretations if it were me as well.

Um, so I just, I just appreciate you. I appreciate our time together. I appreciate everything you shared today. And definitely want to give you the opportunity, you know, as we wrap up here, how people can get plugged in with you, like where can they, connect with you and get tapped into your work.

Yeah, absolutely. So again, I'm the founder of Deliberate Self Therapeutic Services. For more information on that particular mental health private practice, you can go to www.theliberatedself.org or you can go to, Instagram, which is my favorite space, and, and that's @theliberatedself. 

All the things I'm up to like in the moment, um, cause that's constantly being updated and I'm sharing and I'm doing our IG live series, unpacking white supremacy and the adverse impact. And so, which is a project, a larger project. So you can find me there as well. Awesome. 

Thank you so much Antonio for your time.

And I think this was a dope conversation. Definitely gave me a lot of life and a lot to reflect on today myself. So, so yeah, but thank you so much. And for everyone listening, thank you for tuning in and don't forget to leave a rating on Apple podcasts and on Spotify. And please feel free to like, and subscribe on YouTube.

Thank you so much. And we'll catch you on the next episode.